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Weird thought, since apparently hd_holidays means at least being *reminded* of post-war H/D fic or whatever, and I doooo want to finish my DE!Draco novella-- whenever I'm no longer obsessed with nu!K/S fic, anyway. So, even just at a glance... things other people may care about in fic that I don't, currently: mostly revolving around the logistics Harry and/or Draco's readjustment post-war... in a sort of rational step-by-step 'this is how it should happen' way.

Does this make sense? Before, I feel things weren't rational enough, and all there was, was over-the-top melodrama/fluff/porn everywhere; everything was about 'feelings', one way or another. But (this is weird to realize), neither am I happy with stuff obviously written *rationally*, where things happen because they make sense, as if the characters are 100% rational individuals who do/feel things because they... make sense and assist with the most direct path to X 'desired outcome'.

I've always hated rational!Draco, and this is part of that, but not entirely; in other words, a Draco that does things because they make sense to you-the-writer/reader, not to Draco. I do want Draco to make sense to himself, but not really to Harry and/or X rational reader/writer, especially one who thinks 'rational' means 'likely to succeed' or 'useful in the long-term', say. I really like the idea of Draco being driven by emotion-- loyalty, love, fear, stubbornness, resentment, sheer ambition. That's really why he's interesting to me, that core of emotional vigor, I guess. I really hate fics where he rationally realizes things that are 'true' (say, about the Dark Lord), but it's not directly from his experiences but rather deduced. I've really never seen him deduce moral/general theory things like that, and I don't want to see it, either. Unless he's over 30 or something.

I really don't like Harry deducing anything either, but he's more likely to come to leaps of insight about people, anyway. It's more interesting if he doesn't, of course; that's what no one seems to appreciate: that stubbornly-blinded!Harry is simply more interesting as a character. He did grow to see Malfoy soooomewhat in a new light with a leap in HBP, but it's not entirely there... I mean, I feel like he's more 'okay, whatever' about it than really having serious insight into Draco or tolerance for Slytherins, as such. I mean, I think it's this fake tolerance that's part of the problem. Some walls have to be battered down, some serious walls of pity and self-righteousness, in regards to how (I think) Harry related to Snape, too. Like, it's ok to feel sorry for Snape because he's dead, unhappy and martyred, and since Draco lost serious face and Harry won, it's ok too. It's like, his 'realization' is because, basically, he saw Draco humiliated enough often enough that he was no longer a rival. The darkness of this-- of Harry-- is like, impossible to address in a fic that deals entirely in the rational, because a rational approach means Harry merely 'realized the truth' about Draco since that's the obvious 'solution' or 'answer' (and if you *want* to read canon that way, you can, it's possible).

So all this remains what I'm interested in. I think I just never approached it correctly-- I was interested in the 'dark sides' of Harry and Draco, but stupid angst/bitterness isn't the way to really approach it. It requires an almost complete lack of emotionalism/bias on the part of the writer, I think, to write about the darker corners of characters in a useful way. That's what it is. I can't be bitter in writing about bitterness-- I'm almost certain to overdo it, kill the writing with too much force, too little insight.

And that's what I want out of a 'really good' H/D fic-- not rationalization but real deep-down insight, something that feels bloodied, as if it was torn out of the guts of these characters, that's still beating and bleeding and wiggling with life. I mean, that's where canon details and even other characters fall by the wayside for me, in the intensity of my need for this depth of authenticity; I need the other characters to be believable insofar as they impact Harry & Draco believably, but I don't *really* need Hogwarts, portraits, moving staircases, the lake, the owls, Aurors, etc. Canon has all that, and I've already got canon, basically.

I've long struggled, I think, with why should I read or write HP fic at all when I'm so basically at peace with canon, with all its flaws. At first I thought-- for awhile I thought-- I needed more 'canon' in fic, and I do, but basically it can never be enough, and indeed it can be too much. I can't really read fic for this 'verse if 'canon' is my guiding light, because then all desire to read anything *but* canon dissipates. So I'm back to where I began: the reason I think H/D as a slash pairing is necessary at all-- and indeed, why is it should be a driving question of the pairing as I see it now, and as I started out seeing it-- is because H/D can plumb those depths of 'why' and 'what does this mean' that canon missed.

What do Harry & Draco really mean to each other? In the context of their world? What could they mean?

That is still interesting to me, I think, but to really be satisfied with an answer, all rationalizations and platitudes and 'given' understandings have to be totally blown wide open. Now more than ever, I don't see why I'd even begin to settle for any other approach. And even if I continue not to read/write fic, I feel better allowing that there is, after all, room for more in my head. In conclusion, as I told Aja: I can't *start* from canon in any way and reach H/D anymore. I have to start from H/D and reach canon, if that makes sense.

Date: 2009-12-31 05:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bookshop.livejournal.com


for awhile I thought-- I needed more 'canon' in fic, and I do, but basically it can never be enough, and indeed it can be too much.

READ REPARO. <-------------------

Date: 2009-12-31 05:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
thnx for the tip, Aja. (y) :)) I will.... er, really. :>

Date: 2009-12-31 05:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] loftily.livejournal.com
She pretty much already has, though! And besides, all of this:

I don't *really* need Hogwarts, portraits, moving staircases, the lake, the owls, Aurors, etc. Canon has all that, and I've already got canon, basically


Date: 2009-12-31 05:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
I didn't say I won't love it! Besides, it's you, who exists in her own category, at least in my head. <3 I was just saying canonicity isn't *enough* or isn't like, the goal... otherwise I'd read/write gen? Or something. Exploration of character > exploration of world... but ideally I want both? But the world is already there, both in canon and in my head, see, so I can fill it in. But I can't fill in stuff that's not there, stuff that's new. I guess that's what I was saying.

Date: 2009-12-31 05:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
I mean, lack of *need* doesn't preclude love. Or something. Is what I meant. ^^;

Date: 2009-12-31 05:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
Besides, you *know* I love it. *squinty eyes* Though if I didn't know better, this sort of thing would make me want to *prove* it, ahahah.

Date: 2009-12-31 05:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] loftily.livejournal.com
I do not know that, lol, but you do not have to read it again. The best parts are the canon details anyway! They always are! For me, anyway!

Anyway, mostly I am just confused because mostly revolving around the logistics Harry and/or Draco's readjustment post-war... in a sort of rational step-by-step 'this is how it should happen' way—I don't know what you are really talking about? I mean, I suppose this is where your ultra-critical look at H/D differs from mine, because I was put off by the vampire/fluff/werewolf/reason-less bondage/deathfic hd_hols stuff, but all the ones that actually dealt with post-war plot that seemed like canon felt emotionally resonant and IDK, gracefully related to canon and the characters, to me.

Date: 2009-12-31 05:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
Anyway, all the bits I've seen I've loved! And I love canon details! Of course. And usually writers who have those also pay attention to the characterization, right, haha, so I don't have to choose. It was a measure of how picky I am with characterization that'd I'd *even* put it about canonicity in a broader sense.

Of course, I didn't read them...? Except for the very beginning of this (http://cinq.hdhols.com/forfuriosity.html)? So possssssibly I'm just talking out of my ass? Aaaas usual. Anyway, in no way am I in favor of fluff/bondage (it goes together!), but I want more than emotionally resonant? Any good fic, anyway, will be able to 'grab you' and therefore it's emotionally 'resonant' in that sense. On some level I think what I meant is that I want the fic to not only build on canon (which is important) but deconstruct canon (at least H&D)-- and trust me, I can't believe I just said that (ugh, fandom flashbacks), but not in a rational way but in an emotional way. Like, emotionally-based character deconstruction. I don't even know what I mean, but it's what I want most. I think. I don't know. The weird thing, I guess, is that I'm not coming at this from a place where I'm critical of H/D as a pairing/concept-- that was part of my previous mistake. Like, it's more that I just want to see its compotent parts? I want to see the pairing 'work for it'-- what I've always wanted. Logistics of different things. Emotional logistics, I guess, really. Aaaand for all I know all those fics have them, since of course I haven't read them, and was just going off on a navel-gazey tangent. ^^;;;

Date: 2009-12-31 06:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godspoodle.livejournal.com
I just read this quote in a fic based on Star Trek & House of Leaves, and it's got this: "Passion has little to do with euphoria and everything to do with patience. It is not about feeling good. It is about endurance. Like patience, passion comes from the same Latin root: pati. It does not mean to flow with exuberance. It means to suffer."

Ad I think that's what I'm getting at, somewhat. The roots of suffering, the roots of [their] passion, the roots of their personalities and assumptions and needs-- all of that. Why do they need each other? What is it *really* that they see? Who, ultimately, have they become? Stuff like that. Like, this desire for revelation of feeling/self through the lens of, at least partly, suffering. Because I can't see H/D that doesn't involve some growing pains (and suffering), and even if the fic doesn't, canon's already got it, y'know. There's all this pain and suffering and past... issues, right, and I don't necessarily want it/them to feel better. And I *certainly* don't want it magically transformed into 'oh, so Harry's a Veela who claims Draco and it's ok now'. But more canon details won't help with that either, will it? Because canon itself failed me on answering deeper issues with both these characters. Something major has to shift, has to be blown open. I don't even know what anymore. But what does this feeling [between them] mean? I mean, without even lust/love entering into it. You can't write entirely rationally about this, or entirely from the outside, where the portraits/Aurors/staircases are. Of course (this was my mistake early on), neither can you write it entirely from the inside. I guess, it's just, I'd like some perfect balance, but if I had to *choose*, I'd want that focus on the relationship logistics and how the passion... um, functions. ^^;; But like, in the context of the real world, right, haha. IDEK. >___>;

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